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kenton
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Instruments To Keep An Eye Out For
Aug 27th, 2005 at 1:27am
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Some examples are:

-the bass version of the "French" horn
-members of the Antoniophone family
-early examples (no later than the 1880's) of the modern trumpet
-1830's examples of Dodworth Ebor Cornos
-early examples (no later than the 1890's) of modern mellophones (not versions that are Ballad/Koenig horns)

Greg
  
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kenton
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Re: Instruments To Keep An Eye Out For
Reply #1 - Aug 27th, 2005 at 1:27am
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I'd like to add:

Trombacello.

kms

  
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tubaron
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Re: Instruments To Keep An Eye Out For
Reply #2 - Aug 27th, 2005 at 11:22pm
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How about a bass flugelhorn? Saw a horn recently on Ebay, advertised as a bass trumpet, but the valve slides are configured similar to flugels and the bore is much larger than other low trumpets shown in this database. Brand is LaFluer, imported by Boosey & Hawkes.
  
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KimC
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Re: Instruments To Keep An Eye Out For
Reply #3 - Sep 2nd, 2005 at 5:41pm
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Also box-valved and disc-valved instruments are something to look after. Some unusual valve arrangements are also sometimes seen. The Bavarian valve system, where 1st and 2nd valves are swapped, and the "swedish" system, where the third valve lower the tone two fulltones and not 1 tone as we are used to.
Stoelzel and Berlin-valved instruments are not bad either! And they play better than their reputation says.
Circular cornets not to forget!

- - -

Exciting instruments sometimes appear where you do not ecspect them. I bought an instrument hoe (unseen) for spare parts from a firebrigade depot. In that hoe the remains of an antoniophone-like instrument was found. All valves were missing, as also some tubing. It was not taken for spare parts, but will leave my workshop after a major repair, and in playing condition next week.
  
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gsmonks
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Re: Instruments To Keep An Eye Out For
Reply #4 - Sep 4th, 2005 at 4:46pm
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What are box valves? That's a new one on me.
  

. . . and the meek shall inhibit the mirth . . .  GSMonks, 14:12
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pryorphone
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Re: Instruments To Keep An Eye Out For
Reply #5 - Sep 4th, 2005 at 8:19pm
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Michael Keller
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gsmonks
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Re: Instruments To Keep An Eye Out For
Reply #6 - Sep 5th, 2005 at 12:17am
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Sorry- I'm still in the dark. The diagram isn't very clear. ???
  

. . . and the meek shall inhibit the mirth . . .  GSMonks, 14:12
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KimC
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Re: Instruments To Keep An Eye Out For
Reply #7 - Sep 5th, 2005 at 5:38pm
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Box valves were seen in very limited use. One known example was a slide for an invention horn, the slide having 2 box valves with corresponing loops. The bow valves were quite clumsy, and so wide that they could not be arranged side by side in a fingerable arrangement. Thus quite long (of uneven length) rods between finger button and valve stem vere necessary.
A major problem with these valves were that they vere hard to get tight, the valve stem and the valve house being box shaped. In some cases the valve stem was made of wood!
The valve loops were laid "around" the box valve, so that valve inlet and end of valve loop were to be found at one side of the valve, while valve outlet and begin of valve loop were located at the opposite side.
The two remaining valve sides had no tube connections.
The lack of acceptable performance gave this valvetype a short life, the few instruments actually built with box valves would soon have been replaced with instruments with other, better performing valvetypes (actually being awailable at that time) That makes them extreme rare. Only 3 box-valved instruments are known to be preserved. Who finds the number 4 instrument in an old lumber room has luck!

Other names used for these valves are: Schuster valves; square valves. 
  
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gsmonks
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Re: Instruments To Keep An Eye Out For
Reply #8 - Sep 5th, 2005 at 10:50pm
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Any idea what those double rotary valves were called, Kim? You used to come across them in, say, F/Eb instruments. They were used to direct air between two sets of tubes instead of one. They were a rarity, and I've never heard what they were properly called.

Here's what the Conn version looked like:

http://www.horn-u-copia.net/picture.php?show=./instruments/Conn/Conn-mello-c1907...
  

. . . and the meek shall inhibit the mirth . . .  GSMonks, 14:12
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KimC
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Re: Instruments To Keep An Eye Out For
Reply #9 - Sep 6th, 2005 at 5:42pm
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That large rotary valve is called a Tonwechsel, german for change of tone. The german word appears to have been taken over in english litterature.
It is smart for change of tuning. And then again, it still requires the valve slides to be adjusted to the new tuning, if the instrument is meant to play just a little in tune.
  
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Re: Instruments To Keep An Eye Out For
Reply #10 - Sep 6th, 2005 at 7:21pm
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Many old mellos have really slick-moving valve slides (they slide as easily as tuning slides) that are marked, either with a line and symbols (like Eb or C), or just a line.

But you're right- and some mellos in F, Eb, D and C came with two sets of slides, so not only did you have to pull the slides out, but for D/C you had to switch.

I'm still hoping someone will come out with a compensating rotary-valve althorn with 5 valves that's set up like a French horn. It would be a $5000 or $6000 horn, but would be worth it.
  

. . . and the meek shall inhibit the mirth . . .  GSMonks, 14:12
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KimC
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Re: Instruments To Keep An Eye Out For
Reply #11 - Sep 7th, 2005 at 8:55pm
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For full integration, a Tonwechsel could be added to each valve loop too, being couled with the main Tonwechsel. It would be a quite complex affair, and, as the Tonwechsel does take up some tube length, become a problem on the 2nd valve loop.
It would get an expensive thing to build! And a heavy thing to carry!
I'd rather prefer to learn from the invention horn players to swap slides in a jiffy.


Oh, and one more thing to keep an eye out for: Dragon headed brasswinds of any kind!
  
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Re: Instruments To Keep An Eye Out For
Reply #12 - Sep 7th, 2005 at 11:09pm
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Dragon-headed? You mean like a dragon-headed cimbasso? There are a few around. I think either Doug Yeo or Bob Beecher may have one. But I think it would be a minor miracle to acquire one. There were a specialty item in their day, weren't they?

That would be a fun thing to get into. I'm not sure what kind of art that is- hammering out soft metals to make shapes like masks, animal heads and pictures- but I'm sure it has a name.

The thing of it is, brasswind companies in days of yore were almost always sheet metal companies, and sometimes were involved in metal decoration like engraving. Engraving and decorating horns used to be an industry unto itself, and was a real art. Some of my old silver horns were engraved to the teeth, had alternating burnished or sandblasted and smooth surfaces.

I mention this because if one of us took it into his head to try and make something like a dragon-headed trombone or tuba or cimbasso, it would be a good idea to also know how to create varied textured surfaces in order to make the final result look really impressive.

But in this danged day of assembly-line stamped out junk, where on earth would you turn to pick up those skills?
  

. . . and the meek shall inhibit the mirth . . .  GSMonks, 14:12
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Re: Instruments To Keep An Eye Out For
Reply #13 - Sep 8th, 2005 at 11:57pm
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KimC wrote on Sep 7th, 2005 at 8:55pm:
Dragon headed brasswinds of any kind!


Well, there's always the popular ebay
Excellent copper dragon head bugle

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Michael Keller
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KimC
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Re: Instruments To Keep An Eye Out For
Reply #14 - Sep 9th, 2005 at 5:55pm
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[quote author=gsmonks link=1125106026/0#12 date=1126134557]
I mention this because if one of us took it into his head to try and make something like a dragon-headed trombone or tuba or cimbasso, it would be a good idea to also know how to create varied textured surfaces in order to make the final result look really impressive.
[/quote]

Don't say such! Now you made me look for some old instrument with a damaged bell, that would be ideal to replace with smething else, like a dragon head.
I have a book on that metal sheet working somewhere, (but where?)  I've also lost the name, but wil try to look it up, if i find that book.
  
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